That Humiliation Thing Again VI  (11/11/98)
	Yes, this will prolly get split off into different threads, too, since it's *already* huge :). I'll try to diligently snip where I can. -moonlight Argentium wrote: You seemed to be rather forcefully pushing your perspective that the reason she doesn't want to do humiliation play is that she wounded/damaged by it, and thus fears it. JK wrote: It is how she is presenting herself at least in her writing style. There seems to be something bothering her a great deal more than just the issue of straightforward humiliation that she has not dealt with. You assume that I have issues with humiliation. I don't particularly. I realize where pitfalls are in my own psyche, and accept that they are there. Humiliation, in and of itself, is neither a good or bad thing. It just is. It is how a person uses it and how a person receives it that is important. JK wrote: Not really saying that she needs to - that's up to her - but it would seem prudent and to her benefit to do so. Why? I'm not really certain what value it would have to me to be able to play in this manner. The combination of not enjoying it and being damaged by it just doesn't hold much in the way of interest for me. JK wrote: y posting about it are also in support of Judy and in part to encourage others to conquer their fears or of what underlies them so that they can be more free to experience more of their submission in different lights. The thing is, some people aren't avoiding it out of fear. I certainly am not. This is an assumption on your part. Perhaps other people are avoiding it out of fear, and if these series of posts helps them, then that's good. For me, it's not fear of something. It's distaste and not wanting to go where I've been in the past that was not healthy for me. JK wrote: can understand that some people just are not ready to face some of their worst fears and maybe that is true for her at this point. If she was really not into humiliation then I think that she wouldn't have expressed herself the way she did concerning it. Well, see, here you're assuming that I have not faced the worst that I contain. You're wrong. As an initiate of a mystery tradition (religious/spiritual), to get to the second initiation, you face the Guardian at the Gate, or the Shadow Self. That part of you which you deny, fear, push away, and don't want to acknowledge. Your task is to *recognize* those fears and integrate them into yourself. To integrate the Shadow Self into your normal self to become a stronger whole. I passed that point several years ago, and I know what is inside of me. You may or may not accept that. It is not fear that keeps me from playing in this manner. It is conscious evaluation and brutal honesty about what my psyche can and cannot do. Period. Argentium wrote: You also suggested that she face this, which would result in healing of some type and an increased capacity to withstand, and desire to be subjected to humiliation play. JK wrote: It's correct for the most of it. My pushing is to get to the root of the fears - that is to say - to get them to respond out of her and possibly out of others. My hope was for the benefit of others here who may have a bit at task with humiliation or other such forms of play, but most importantly for yours to be more specific as to why humiliation 'really' bothers her. I'll say it again. Humiliation doesn't bother me. I just do not choose to play with it. I am uncomfortable at nonconsensual humiliation of other people because it is damaging to them. Consensual humiliation of a person who enjoys it, I can watch. It doesn't bother me terribly. Argentium wrote: My perspective as to why humiliation play is not going to be done in this situation is two-fold, but wrapped up in one concept: I don't wish it. JK wrote: That's fair enough, but the issue is more about where moonlight is coming from. From my perspective as his slave, it *is* the issue. He has the right to do what he wishes with me. My wants or needs are not relevant. Now, the fact that he wishes me to grow and learn things *IS* relevant. I will grow and learn, regardless of whether *I* want to. I am coming to this from the point of being a slave. It's that simple to me. I have needs and wants and desires. Some will be met, some will not. It is Argentium's choice which of those happen. JK wrote: Not that what you want isn't important - it is. I just want to note tho that what Doms/Masters want and where they wish to go is not always in line with their subs/slaves' desires and needs. While this may not be an issue for you and moonlight - it is for others. Some subs/slaves have some real needs that only certain Doms/Masters can bring out from them and assist in repairing and then in the end of that repairing comes some experiences that the subs/slaves have craved for in their darkest and most frightening dreams - that 'something else' that pushed the original fears to be defensive to fight off in the first place. That's what I was getting at here in my postings. Perhaps moonlight wants to find that space in her 'self' where it is safe for her to be humiliated, but as of yet hasn't found a way to get there so she allows her fears, her defense, to fight off all other more apparent attempts to push her there. she may not want to be pushed or taken, but to freely go there herself. No, it is not. That is not the type of slave I am. To give you a better picture, I'm like a wolf or a large cat....wild, free, seeking to join with a person for a time. The time that *I* have chosen, to be with Argentium, is until he chooses for me not to be with him. I enjoy struggling and fighting and being "tamed" and overpowered. This is empowering to me and makes me freer. It is not humiliating. Nor is it breaking me. I am the same as I was before I was overpowered. Just now I am given direction. Harnessed power. So, you see, being pushed and taken is *exactly* what I enjoy most. Pushing my limits and playing on the edge is *exactly* what I enjoy most. I am not afraid to push limits, or do things that are dangerous. I don't seek out humiliation because I don't think it is healthy for me. Argentium wrote: 1. Humiliation play holds no inherent appeal to me. JK wrote: But are you willing to explore what it might entail for her? If he thought that it was what I needed, he might. Since it currently holds no appeal to me, nor do I see it appealing in the future, he probably won't examine it. *HE* is the dom, after all. It is his responsibility in this relationship to look at risks and evaluate them, with input from me. Argentium wrote: 2. I have a goal to avoid any lasting harm to moonlight. I feel so strongly about this that I instituted a negotiated rule between us that can over-ride my wishes and orders if either she, or I feels what either of us is doing could cause lasting harm. JK wrote: I am hearing what 'you' are saying, but it has little more to do than enable moonlight's self-preservation in certain areas and the issue is more about what is best for you as compared to her or the both of you. There is no need above to put you in quotes. When we negotiated things, he told me that his first rule for any of his slaves was that I was to prevent harm to myself, up to and including harm from him. This was not something that I brought up. Or asked for. He has the agreement from me that he may do what he wishes to me. End of story. He chooses what will happen, he chooses when it will happen, he chooses how it will happen. I don't see how any of this is influenced by me not wanting to do humiliation play out of the realization that it will cause me lasting harm....which he has told me I am to prevent at all cost. JK wrote: Allowing her to override you is fine in some instances, but in others will only forceably enable her fears to keep her captive and perhaps you as well. Do you understand what I am getting at here? I am not allowed to override his wishes. I can ask him to stop. He will ask me why and evaluate the answer I give him. At that point, he will either stop or go on as he thinks is appropriate. *IF* I ever chose to use my first rule, I would have to have one *DAMN* good reason for using it, or the punishment I would receive for it would match the crime. Yes, crime. Of not trusting him. And that is *huge* to me. It is not something that I will ever use on a whim. Or because I am uncomfortable. JK wrote: It is a delicate path for Doms/Masters to take and equally as hard to safeguard the sub/slave through to an end that grips one so much as to come to the realization that the greatest of all fears is not what led up to that point and of what one had to conquer but that fear of knowing that you will return there again and again. If you are able to find that one or more fears that your sub/slave finds most difficult to entertain and then pushing her hard enough to blast through them to the great fear I mentioned - you might find some things about moonlight and yourself that you never thought was possible. Having put a slave through that I can tell you that both sides of the fence holds some pretty incredible journeys. The greatest fear that I have is abandonment. Argentium is well aware of this fear. He can play on it or not as he chooses. He can play on *any* part of me that he chooses. And you're assuming that he is not harsh or pushes past what limits I have. You're mistaken. I have blithered with pain and fear and tears at his hands. I will again. I am not afraid of what he will or can do. JK wrote: I will grant you that moonlight may never get there and that she may never realized what that is like, and that you may not wish to get there or take her there - You're assuming that I have not been there. You're mistaken. JK wrote: that's fine except on one note: her fears may be speaking to the both of you and certainly to her. The question is who runs the relationship: the two of you or your fears? Tiger runs the relationship, with input from me. He is not psychic, after all, much though he seems it on occasion. JK wrote: There is no right answer, unless you want to reach some ultimate freeing experience. Not getting there doesn't mean you are missing the boat. Now maybe I am reading moonlight wrong here. If so, then I can only hope that my postings will be of benefit to others, but if not - then it is imperative for her sake that you crush her fears and free her. Crush my fears? Why? He enjoys playing with them. The idea of playing with needles with me has him salivating. I *LIKE* playing with fear. I thrive on it, on most occasions. This is why I play with knives and guns and breath play. I thrive on not knowing if he will slip over the edge and become the sadist and not *care*. I like the violence and walking the edge of his control. JK wrote: A part of owning a slave is the effort to make her as free as is possible at least that is important to me and to some others. No one said it was going to be a piece of cake and it would be disservice to her very being if you allowed her to be controlled by her fears which may indeed lie with those attuned to her fight against being humiliated just because you don't find anything appealing about it for yourself. Considering that I'm freer than I have ever been with Argentium, and considering that we are committed to a long relationship, I don't think this applies. I have *never* felt the freedom that I do with him. And that stems not from having no fear. It comes from having complete trust in someone. JK wrote: Understood, but more harm might be done if you allow moonlight's fears to slowly eat her away. Considering that I'm *not* being eaten away by anything, I don't think he's allowing that to happen. If anything, I'm growing and flourishing under his control and direction. Argentium wrote: In moonlight's specific case, I know that humiliation *will* result in harm, and that dampens down any remote curiosity I might have had with regards to this style of scening. JK wrote: And what other parts of your relationship are affected by her fears about humiliation, and of what parts of her are affected by these fears? I would take a closer look into those areas too. I. Don't. Fear. Humiliation. I am aware that it can damage me beyond what he wishes to play with. I am aware that that damage can affect a larger portion of my life than just the d/s part. I choose not to play that way to not cause that damage.