That Humiliation Thing Again VII  (11/11/98)
	[snip of me talking about my buttons and striving to control them.] JK wrote: So are you saying that for you that there is a limit that you have to preserve so that you remain human or are you saying that you like some of those buttons of yours and you wish to retain them? No, I'm saying that no one can become perfect. To become perfect is to stop being human and become something else. I can strive to perfection, but I will never achieve it. moonlight wrote: Some things I don't choose to get past. Not every line should be crossed. That's also the short of it. I have values and ethics and morals that I choose not to disregard. I have given oaths that I choose not to break because of my own sense of honor. These prevent me, on some things, from "getting past" what you see as things that bother me. JK wrote: I find that odd to some extent. Why do you choose not to get past some things? And why shouldn't every line be crossed? Well, probably for the same reason that I believe that rules and boundaries are a good thing. I have things that I will not discuss with some people. There is a firm line that I won't cross with that. Why? Because it would harm them to hear it. Absolute truth is not always the best course of action. JK wrote: I suppose if one were truly free they wouldn't have ethics in their way. For example, a slave might only act as to what she is allowed by privilege not by what she owns to her 'self'. Nice fantasy fodder. The world doesn't work that way, though. At least mine certainly doesn't. Nor does Argentium's. That is not the type of slave that he wishes to own. And so he does not. He picks slaves that fit what he wants them to be and then helps them to grow. If that is what *YOU* want, then that's nice. It certainly is not what all Masters want, nor what all slaves should strive for. As for ethics, ethics are what keep me from breaking my oaths and keeping my word. I don't see this as a bad thing. I have given my word to Argentium that I will not trample on the heart he has seen fit to give me, nor will I leave without his permission. I have promised him my heart for as long as he wants it. And that is something that I can't just take back. Ethics lead me to behave in a moral fashion. They support my system of values. I know that you think a slave should only be an extension of her Master and what her Master wants. I don't agree with that. Neither does the man that I call Master. We're well suited that way. I see your treatment of slaves as unethical. Small surprise that you think you should strive not to have ethics to be truly free. [snip] JK wrote: Then why did you react to Judy instead of speaking in this manner. What you write here is from your heart and not from your fears. For the simple reason that Judy did not try to say that I was not free. moonlight wrote: I suspect that you are just wrong about that. I have had to face the darkest parts of myself and live through them. Accept them as a part of myself. I have run the depths of the darkest part of my soul, found who and what I am, and have integrated that into a strong and secure whole. JK wrote: Was that the only option you had to maintain or more of a 'that's it I give up' deal? It was what I chose to do. It was not something I had to do, or me giving up. I chose to face my Shadow and accept it for what it was. To make it a part of myself, as it should be. I don't see that as giving up or being backed into a corner. JK wrote: Really - then why have you spent so much time responding to me here in ssbb? If I didn't impact you then why are you bothering to respond? And why did you send posts to Arg for His response? Seems you got impacted to some extent. Because I though the would find it amusing to respond. And my curiosity was piqued as to what he would say. As for why *I* responded, well, I see it as an opportunity to be an example for submissives out there that are just learning what they are. And to show that they have infinite choices in who they will become. [snip] moonlight wrote: We just vary as to where those limits are. I don't think that it's healthy or necessary to drive a sub over every one of their limits to "make them a better sub" or whatever it is that people do to make the "ideal" sub. I see who and what I am. JK wrote: So are you saying that your Master has never gotten you over a limit to an part of you that you didn't find absolutely illuminating? Our whole relationship in and of itself was doing just that. We were firmly friends for years, and taking it deeper was met by a lot of resistance. I wouldn't trade it now, for the world. But there was a *lot* of baggage for him to dig through to get to the bottom of me. moonlight wrote: Some people, like Argentium, have carte blanche (I hope I spelled that right). Some people get to only flog me. Some people don't get to come near me with a ten foot pole. I don't see this as being restrictive at all. I see it as being given the ultimate choice in being in control of myself and what happens to me. JK wrote: Sounds to me then that you are more submissive than a slave if even Arg has carte blanche - you apparently have final say. Let me clarify this, then. Until such time as I give myself to someone, *I* hold the control over who and what I do. I decide who gets to do what. At the moment, I have given myself to Argentium, until he chooses to turn me away or he tires of me. Therefore *HE* makes the decisions from this point forward. moonlight wrote: He knows what limits I have. I have explicitly told him that I am needle phobic and that it is a hard limit (One that I would not let anyone go past). JK wrote: Then I wouldn't call that a hard limit since it would indicate that under certain circumstances you could be pushed over it. I would term that you have some limits that are absolute. It is a hard limit because it will remain that way for me. I have given him absolute control over what happens to me, though, so he can pass those limits if he chooses. That does not change the fact that that limit remains in place *for* *me*. I do not grant just anyone this right. Argentium is the first, as a matter of fact. He will most likely be the last, Gods willing. I don't trust easily. And he has managed to gain that level of trust. JK wrote: So there is that chance then that He could use needles on you if He so choose and the part of you that will hold you there is knowing that if you try to leave that you will lose the opportunity to submit to Him. Not at all. I don't view playing on my fears, with one exception, as anything worth bringing that rule into being for. I like playing with my fears. It's a kick for me. I would not walk out on him for playing with needles with me. I may very well tell him very explicitly that it is something I cannot do in the future. That remains to be seen. And he will listen to me when I explain that, if I have too. And he will evaluate whether that is something he will play with again. The one exception, by the way, is playing on my fear of abandonment. That is something that is absolutely right out. Both for him and for me. He has told me this is not a boundary he is willing to cross, and I believe him on that. JK wrote: So technically Arg could override you completely that is if you are truly committed to be in submission to him. Do I hear that correctly? Otherwise it sounds as if you are wavering a bit. He's not overriding anything. It's his right, granted to him by me during our initial negotiations. He has the right, granted by me, to cross any line that he feels it is important to do. In return for that, he's promised to pick up any pieces and put them back together at the end of it. moonlight wrote: Similarly, I refuse the type of humiliation that would tear away my hard won sense of feeling that I am worth something. JK wrote: So there are perhaps some forms of humiliation that are ok with you then? What might those be? Seems that the different kinds of humiliation ought to be stated so as to clarify those between being called names and being mortified for exposing yourself in front of others and other such kinds. I don't see exhibition as humiliating. I see it as exhibitionism. I don't see calling someone wench, slut, toy, or such things as humiliating. They are taboo, yes, but they are erotically charged. I enjoy breaking taboos. I do not enjoy humiliation that is degradation of the person's self or self worth. moonlight wrote: I give myself over completely and am often a babbling idiot when Argentium plays with me. I am his toy to bend and shape and drive where he wishes. That is the long and short of it. I am not in control. I am completely free to respond and go where he wants. I don't see my restriction on humiliation as interfering with that, and I don't see it as restraining me from completely letting go. JK wrote: Interesting you say that you give yourself over completely to Arg and then later you say you have limits. So which is it? I do gather that you are trying to say that, other then the limits you have, that you do for everything else give up all controls to Arg. Right? I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. I see them as working in tandem. I have limits. Every human alive does. They're fooling themselves if they think they don't. I turned myself, including those very same limits, over to Argentium to take care of and play with. I entered into an absolute relationship. In that relationship, he has the right to play with me however he wishes, regardless of limits. I gave him the right to cross them at will. That does not mean they don't exist. They do. It just means that I submit myself to *his* will. I have clearly explained to him the ramifications of playing with some of those limits, what he would most likely have to do if he *did* choose to play with them, and then let him make the decision about whether he would or not. In some cases, such as playing with needles, he told me he will at some point. In others, such as humiliation, he has said that he would not play with it. He can change his mind about either, and I will have no compunction about staying with him. The only out that I have is if he does me lasting harm. Or his growing tired of me.