Abusive Personalities   (10/14/98)
	Judy wrote: Let me put it this way. i do not believe others *should* feel any particular way. However, i am put off by proclamations that humiliation, just for example, *is absolutely dangerous* or is *absolutely harmful* to some people. You can be put off by it all you like, Judy. You don't know what my life has been, what it is like, or what will harm me. Until you do, you cannot know whether or not something will harm me. By talking with Argentium, we have *BOTH* decided that therisk of harm that will be done to me in regards to playing with humiliation makes it not worth playing with. Until you talk to me for three weeks straight, for hours at a time, and turn me inside out, please at least grant the possibility that he just *MIGHT* have a point with that. Ok? Judy wrote: To use one example, Moonlight said if Argentium had called her a bitch that would absolutely harm her. No, I did not. I said that I would react differently if he said it to me than I would react if I or one of my friends said it, or if JK said it. I know what Argentium means when he calls someone a bitch. I am *not* what he considers a bitch. I am not overly aggressive, pushy, and someone that will trample over other people to get where I want to be. In other words, the traditional meaning of bitch, used to describe women in the corporate atmosphere. What I and my friends mean by bitch is a compliment given to someone that stands up for themselves while not harming someone. JK calling me a bitch would garner one of two reactions. Either I would thank him for being accurate if I've tried to snarl and shred him to ribbons, or I would laugh because it would mean I had struck a nerve. In these situations, Argentium's reaction *WOULD* be harmful to our relationship because it would damage it. Get it? I never said that calling me a bitch would absolutely harm me. I said it would cause harm because it would mean there was something *SERIOUSLY* wrong in our relationship, knowing how *HE* uses the word. Don't put words in my mouth. Judy wrote: If you take this out in the open and really look at it you cansee it is absurd. Yes, it is, and that's why I never *said* what you are implying. Judy wrote: Maybe, because of past experiences, "bitch" has come to be a very negative word for her. Actually, I am quite proud to be an alpha wolf bitch. I am *not* proud when someone calls me a bitch in the manner that Argentium understands the word. It would mean that I had harmed someone unintentionally. Judy wrote: All the more reason to take a look at it and deprive it of its power. The word bitch does not have any intrinsic power over me, nor do I consider it humiliating. Therefore, there is nothing to do with the word. Judy wrote: This is what JK was saying. I am well aware of what JK was saying. I simply disagree with him. So does Argentium. Obviously, you don't. We *CAN* all have our own opinions, and they don't even have to agree. Judy wrote: i can imagine, for example, Argentium lovingly telling her she is his bitch. I can't. Because that is not the way that Argentium uses or understands the word. *IF* he changed his mind about the word, or his understanding of the word, then it wouldn't bother me in the slightest to be called a bitch by him. Do you understand what I'm saying here? Or do I need to try to explain it differently? (No, that's not snide, I'm honestly trying to explain...) Our understanding of words color how we use them and what we mean by them. I am aware that Argentium uses that particular word differently than I do. Therefore, I have to consider *how* he uses it and *what* he means, if he calls me a bitch. It generally would *not* be nice. Judy wrote: She may at first feel a little shaken by this, but i doubt she will be irreparably harmed by it, and she may in fact find that it does not hurt in this context at all. In that context, I have been called a bitch in the past and taken pride in it. The *WORD* does not hold the power. The meaning behind the word holds the power. With his current understanding and usage of the word, *YES* I would be harmed by it. Or our relationship would be. Got it? Judy wrote: But again, i will say that no, humiliation is not for everyone at every time. When i first got into this it was the biggest no-no on my list, because of my fragile self-esteem and my heavily-humiliated childhood. i was certain that i would be harmed by it. i have now moved to a stage where i welcome it. i would never suggest, though, that anyone try to move there if they are not comfortable with it. But only keep their minds open, only do not assume you will always feel this way. I have never said that I will always feel this way. Humiliation, in general, is not something that I can't be around or can't deal with. I'm well aware that there are a *lot* of people, yourself included, that love to use it in what they do. I've explained, in great detail :), why I, and Argentium, do not. I don't know the future. I've never said I do. I do know his past, and my past, and I don't forsee using it in the future. If that changed, then it does. Judy wrote: So even though i give that example above with A. calling M. "bitch" i do not suggest or imply that he should be doing this at this time. Only that he and she keep an open mind about this. Pick a different word. :) I think I've explained why him calling me a bitch, at this point, would be a Bad Thing. Judy wrote: i realize that i tend to get a little testy, too, and sometimes downright angry, when all i really am hoping for is a little more listening to words and a little less attacking of people. Well, I've tried to keep the tone down to discussing or debating in the other thread, for that very reason. Argentium and I are both getting mail from people indicating that they are getting something out of the thread, so we'll keep going until it reaches some sort of conclusion.