Masters and Slaves  (07/05/99)
	Tobie wrote: I highjacked something moonlight wrote, to start a new topic that is near and dear to me. Oh sure...:) Just hijack me...:) Did you at least use a lethal weapon? *grin* moonlight wrote: No kidding, JK. Some of those people are even people that *you* say aren't in a 24/7 M/s relationship because they don't conform to your own standards. Tobie wrote: There's that *standards* thing again. (This is *NOT* a critique of moonlight) This standards issue is becoming more interesting as I go through what ever phase of learning I'm in. Who's standards? Who set them, what do they mean...no need to answer those, rhetorical at best I suppose. No, they're good questions, and hard ones to answer. There are, really, two levels of "standards" here, at least, that I can see. One is the "standards" that occurs on an individual level, and the other is the "standards" that occurs on a group level. We are, in my mind, allowed to set whatever standards we wish for our lives, on an individual basis. Certainly, the standards that I set for my partners most likely would not satisfy *your* needs in a partner, above a very broad interpretation of them. Where we seem to come into a problem at is expanding those *personal* standards out to a larger group. SSB, and ever group, I would hazard a guess anyway, has their own sets of standards and rules. They have to be broader than for individuals or your group would consist of one or two people and that would be it. Which, in a nutshell, is where I think JK runs into problems with the group here. If he wanted to consider those his *personal* standards and present them as such, then more of us would say "Ok...we've pointed out the problems...it's your own neck if you screw up". But he's presented them as a template for M/s relationships, though he will "allow' personal modifications. The catch is...M/s is one *hell* of a lot broader than he is willing or able to admit. (I'm not sure which case it is.) Tobie wrote: Even within my own relationship, these *standards* aren't exactly matching. Gary feels we're in a M/s relationship. He's the boss so if he says we are in a M/s then by golly we're in a M/s. To *me*, I'm not sure that we are. I know he'd the dom, I know he's the Master, I just don't know if I *qualify* as a slave. Why do you question this? I'm curious as to why you see your self as not qualifying as a slave...there certainly aren't any hard and fast rules as to what you have to do to "qualify" as a slave. :) Tobie wrote: We are 24/7, and he initiates his dominance, my submission, our play, yatta yatta yatta when ever it pleases him to do so. I consent, allow, encourage and love it when he does. I make sure that my actions "pay" him for his effort, that he is rewarded for being dominant. That he knows that his behaviors makes me feel silly goofy or giddy with passion, what ever emotion he desires, he can stoke from within me. Ok, so far....sounds pretty slavey to me. :) But, keep in mind, I'm not the arbiter of your relationship. :) Tobie wrote: But to *me* this alone does not make me a slave. I adore him, I obey him *ahem* usually. I look to his needs and try to fill them. I try to be pleasing. If he told me to jump off a high bridge, I doubt that I would. Depends on how deep the water is below ::grin::. Do I simply trust that he has gone down there and measured the water? I would think that a "slave" would trust that. I cannot. I know, that he has been dealing with 4 little kids, same as me, and he gets addled at times by the frustration of that, just like me. I know that if there are too many things going on, he may even *gasp* be, like, actually, WRONG in something. As his mate, it's my job to let him know he's wrong. I know the heat gets to him, he's still adapting to Alabama heat. I know he comes home from work tired and really just needing a bit of unwind time, instead he gets ganged up on with "Daddy! daddy daddy daddydaddydaddydaddydaddy......" This is something that I've seen a lot and I don't know quite what to do with it...I sometimes have the same problem. However....I just recently realized something that I'd like to share with you... Maybe it will help... We all know that submissives retain the right to say no. They are not owned, usually (yes, that's a sop thrown to those of you that *are* subs that don't like the word slave. :) there is some difference between their ownership and those that are "slaves". As far as *I* can tell, the difference mainly revolves around the fact that subs can tell the dom to piss off if they want, with little to no repercussions. Slaves, generally, get no say in it. Now. Here comes the hard part..... It is a fallacy that a slave has no choice. It is an illusion that we, as slaves, keep up in day to day life. Every time our Masters or Mistresses give us an order, we have the option to not do it. For some, that is such a fleeting thought that it may as well *not* exist. But it does...even if we don't always perceive it. Some of us have been serving the same partners so long that our "play" has become so meshed with out lives that we don't "think" about individual events, and the doms don't always do what they know will cause those "thoughts" to happen. The gods honest truth is....even slaves make decisions. They make the decision to obey or not to obey every time they are told to do something. That may be the *only* decision they ever make. But they will make it every time. And face the consequences of that choice. Tobie wrote: So would I instantly jump off a bridge for him, nope. Would I after I asked him about it? More than likely, yes. Is it my job to be there for him? Yes, and I try to be. But I'm uppity, and as he so often teases me, I'm onery..He thinks that if one looked up "ornery" my pict would be there. He says I get grumbly. I do. I can't just turn off the day to day stresses as well as I'd like to. Personality traits have little to do with whether you are a submissive or a slave or a dominant or a master. You are who you are. You are a Tobie, and that makes you uppity and respectful and soft and a cabbage. :) That is who you are. And that is what your parner must deal with and work with. That you sometimes question him is not a bad thing, nor does it mean that you're not a slave. Slaves have bad days and good days just like everyone else. We are not some strange breed of creature that doesn't have needs and limits and emotions and feelings. They're all there, just like with everyone else. It's an idiot for a Master that doesn't realize that. Tobie wrote: He swatted me on the butt the other day unexpectedly, I didn't know he was there and I turned around and whacked him so fast my own head was spinning. ::wry grin:: We were both shocked at my fast anger, then we laughed. He knows me well, so well that he knows that laughter is going to be the best medicine for most of my anger or frustration and that my anger and frustration is seldom caused by him, yet he is the one it gets directed towards at times. He is my Master and I adore him, but I'm not sure if I'm good enough at holding up my end to qualify as his slave. Tobie....why don't you ask *him* if he thinks you are? Isn't that the one person that *really* matters? moonlight wrote: There seems to be a *lot* of people that need to understand a *lot* of things 'round here...... Tobie wrote: Me included, I have so much learning and growing to do ::sigh:: When we stop learning, we die. When I stop learning, I hope someone puts me out of my misery.