A Question on a Checklist... I(04/29/03)
	Rob wrote: I based my comment on my own experiences within both the gay and BDSM communities. My impression is that most people out there neither practice it [beastiality], nor do they approve of it. If I'm wrong in that impression, so be it. Obviously, we have very different communities as I'm south of the Canadian border. I also tend to run with a wide variety of folks that are in the leather community as well as the BDSM community (and yes, I do draw a distinction between the two...if you're unsure of what I mean, I'll happily explain.) Rob wrote: As for the "rule book" that you mention, the "Safe, Sane, Consensual" rule that we almost all follow SSC is a slippery slope on some topics. IMO, the only part of it that can be verifiable is consensual, thus I prefer RACK. (Risk Aware Consensual Kink) Rob wrote: is the one I look to when it comes to beastiality. That rule is violated automatically by beastiality since--by definition--an animal cannot give informed consent. Can it not? I tend to work more with dogs and cats and their behaviors so I'm going to stick with them (dogs are quite likely to be the most common recipient of this behavior, perhaps behind horses). I can, with fair certainty predict my dog's behavior within a range of activity. When he's pouting, he holds his body in a different manner than when he's happy. His tail is held at a different angle, he vocalizes differently. Similarly, when he's just plain grouchy, he carries himself differently than when he's in the mood to play or trying to get my attention. These all have fairly common behavioral cues. When attacked, dogs respond with an additional set of body language that is what I consider display behavior. The neck fur rises up to stand on end, the tail is carried low, the body slouches and the head drops down in addition to the lips and cheeks peeling back to display the teeth. The ears are carried at a different angle closer to the head as well. I go into this detail to illustrate that we can communicate and understand our pets very well without them saying a word. We know when they don't want attention and when they do. We know when they are in pain and likely to lash out and when they are just tired and sleepy. Telling if they are interested in a sexual encounter is not that difficult when you know your pet. If the answer's no, you will see sulking, pouting, and eventually threat displays if you continue. If you doubt that, watch a wolf pack when the alpha female is in season and receptive vs when she is not. Males have the same ability to communicate their displeasure. Pushing beyond your limits with most dogs (and here I'm speaking about larger ones) can be dangerous at best. Even the most domesticated animal will attack when cornered. Some animals initiate a sexual encounter. There's little doubt when that happens, either. Can they verbally say yes or no in english (or any language you choose)? No. Can they consent? I wouldn't be so quick to answer no. Rob wrote: I also disapprove on the Safety issue, since at least some activities (gerbling, sex with small animals, etc.) involve killing, maiming, or permanently harming the animal in question. I'm speaking specifically of beastiality of a kind where no death or injury is caused to the animal. Anything else is unethical in the extreme, IMO. Rob wrote: You're reading a little too much into what I said. My private opinions are USUALLY just that...private, and I make a point of not forcing them on others unless they're asked for...either directly or by implication. Actually, I was unclear. I wasn't speaking specifically of you in particular. However, the fact remains that people into beastiality learn fairly quickly who they can and cannot trust to speak about the topic to. My apologies if you felt singled out by my comment. That was not my intent.