Thrill Seeking III   (02/22/00)
	moonlight wrote: Pretty much. If you want to risk your life on the offhand chance that they *do* know what they're doing, that's fine. Me, I'd want to know what they were doing to set it up. As far as I'm concerned, this is *not* mindfuck fodder and no way in hell I'd do it without knowing exactly what it entailed. Steven wrote: And this is of course the pitcher's prerogative and entirely within the rights of anyone bottoming to such a scene. I agree. That was my *own* response. :) But then, I've worked around and in water for a looooong time and have a healthy respect for it. There are times when it seems to have a mind of its own. Steven wrote: But it had been my impression - and admittedly this is on very scant information - that the scenes were being done for their terror value. Now, I hope that anyone who would do such a From my perspective...the terror is in known what *could* go wrong. Not in not knowing. But, I suspect these are two completely different sources for terror and one doesn't equate to the other...despite the same end point. In my head, I have a harder time fearing what I don't know when it comes to something like this. Take skydiving again... I know that things can go wrong. I know that the likelihood of it doing so is small, with careful preparation. I do *not* know what "careful" preparation is...so I don't know *everything* that can go wrong. I'm quite certain that if I *knew* how much could go wrong, I would be even *more* adamant about never jumping out of a plane. (Unless it was going to crash and I was going to be dead anyway) Steven wrote: scene with me pitching would 1) know I wouldn't do it if I weren't satisfied that the risk could be brought down to a level acceptable to me (which, BTW, I don't have the skill to accomplish and so I wouldn't do it; I hope my partner would understand that about me) 2) know my acceptable There is one reason, and one reason only, that I rule out doing this scene with my current dom. He is not aware of all of the safety issues and could not make it safer without a *LOT* of learning time. Right now, he doesn't know the questions to ask. I *do*, however, trust him enough that if he *did* do all the work it would entail to go actually go through with it. But part of that work means proving to me that he *has* done the work. The person performing it as my partner would *have* to have what you're talking about in order to do it. My trust and the knowledge that they were satisfied with the risk assessment. And I happen to know that Tiger's a stickler for cutting risk. :) Steven wrote: level is risk is one zie can accept (it would be nicely symmetrical if it's the same level of risk zie'd be willing to take with my life, but whether it's so nicely harmonious or not, my risk tolerance should still be lower than zirs (given that many submissives, myself included, will accept risks to our lives we'd never take with our partner's, it's not always good enough that the submissive be willing to accept the risk (this is less of a factor in non D&S relationships)). But while zie might know on one level that I'd keep zir "safe" (i.e. within an acceptable range of risk, one for which the payoff is sufficient, and a range as low as can be achieved while achieving the desired effect), if the illusion of danger is completely destroyed by my meticulous explanation of everything that will be done to remove the danger, what is the point in doing the scene at all ? Again, I think it might depends on how you are playing with terror and which kind. Because I know what water can do, no matter *what* the safety precautions are, I know *just* how quickly this can go wrong...and just how easy it is for it to do so. Known terrors can prey on the mind just as easily as unknown ones. Steven wrote: There's been some threads about "informed consent"[1] and what it means. "Informed" must, IMO, mean "sufficiently informed for the choice under consideration" (i.e. much information for entering a TPE relationship, much less information for a hand spanking). It's impossible to ever be fully informed. But some scenes can't be done with the catchers receiving all the information that they could be given, because knowing too much could undo the scene. True. It's a very tricky balance. I think it *is* important to know, in this particular scene, that the person be informed of the knowledge of how quickly it can go wrong and the likelihood of death from mistakes. *Personally*, I don't see how something like this can be done as a mindfuck or test of faith. I can see it played with for terror (of the known variety). Believe me. When you feel the water close over your head, even when you *know* what they've done...it's completely different than standing on the edge of the pool and knowing. That's when the "what if's" start. You can feel the burning in your lungs as your breath goes...you can struggle all you want, but you can't get away. You know the futility of struggling and wasting your breath...you know the futility of fighting against the monster surrounding you and cradling you softly...killing you slowly. And believe me....there is the final temptation to just inhale the water and get it over with. Why, yes...I have been caught in riptides. :)