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moonlight wrote:
Why does that sensibility make you uneasy? Do you assume that you have to play within a specific box? Or that they expect certain things? Don't we want to make certain that as little bad as possible happens?
Charles wrote:
1) I like to play with fear. When someone says "This scares me" my reaction is "Is this a limit you'd like to push?"
2) When someone approaches a new scene with a list of "don'ts" it says to me "I'm afraid of something bad happenning."
If you combine the two, what happens is that I try to find a way to play with their fear of something bad happening. This is usually not such a good approach. So I get uneasy.
The words red flag and bull come to mind. :)
And, quite honestly, it's where there are one or two people that I can think of that give me the heebiejeebies about playing with. I just can't *quite* convince myself that they wouldn't take me right straight into hell. And yes, that list includes you. :)
And y'all seem to leave *just* enough question in mind as to whether you'd help me back out once 'twas over.
Now. Before everyone comes to Charles' rescue about how of *course* he doesn't break his toys...I'm aware of that. :) It's the ability to actually *leave* that question there right along with "knowing" that I'd come out of the experience in one piece...(after suitable recovery time...)
And, there's also the slight perceptable desire/need to be taken into hell and left. Because a part of me, small though it may be, thinks that's what I want/deserve. And that part of me is not *quite*...all there.
Which is also another flag that I prolly shouldn't wave around, but there it is. :)
- moonlight wrote:
I mean, if I came to you and said "these are limits that are hard. I can't/don't want to stretch them at this time" That outlines a clear boundary. After that, anything else is negotiable.
Charles wrote:
You think it outlines a boundary. I think it puts a bunch of posts into a large empty field. How does one connect those dots? More accurately it draws some circles on a piece of paper saying that the "insides" are off limits. No problem, but does that mean that everything outside those circles is fair game? That seems to be the implication - and it's a dangerous one.
And I *keep* negotiating until I figure out what does *not* constitute failure. If I'm unclear, I'm more likely to fail. :)
- moonlight wrote:
Of course, I'm fairly specific about don'ts...maybe I just don't understand what you're meaning by a list of don'ts. When I say "No watersports" I mean just that. If I'm specifying "No sex" I tend to qualify what "sex" is to me. I don't *think* I've told someone just "no sex". And if that is the type of thing you're talking about, I agree that it needs clarification.
Charles wrote:
Laugh. No. Let's take your example of "no watersports." Recall I like transgression, I like edge play, I like pushing limits, and I have a devious, fertile, nasty imagination.
Besides...I happen to *like* devious, fertile, nasty imaginations.
- Charles wrote:
When you say "no watersports" I will clarify with you that what you mean is that you don't want to play with urine. Not mine, not yours, not anyone elses. I can think of a half dozen things right off the top of my head, that I could do that would not be "watersports" by any normal interpretation, but would push your buttons. For example, assuming that otherwise sex is ok, if I were going down on you, I might make an oblique reference to how nice you smelled and ask if you'd been to the toilet recently.
- Charles wrote:
If you were less careful and I were feeling nastier I might spend an inordinate time figuring out your limits around water sports, getting you into a mindset where that was on your mind. Then blindfold you, and pour a glass of water and put it on the headboard. Not say anything, never use the glass of water. Just leave you with the nagging thought "did he really pee into a cup? Nah. If he did, what's he gonna use it for?"
Watersports? No, not really. Fucking with your mind around the subject of watersports? Yeah.
Now, if you actually peed in the cup and set it where the odor could come into play in the scene, it *would* be watersports...even though it never touched *me*.
But I do understand better the way you negotiate. :)
- Charles wrote:
The PROBLEM with all this is - neither one of us would really enjoy it. I'd MUCH rather hear about things you DO like, and figure out clever and devious variations on those than try to play with a long list of fears and staying just outside those carefully drawn lines.
- moonlight wrote:
*harumphf* I do *not* resemble that remark at all. (Though I've never performed such an action with Charles. :) He's too scary for me....:) Whoops...I wasn't going to go into the fear thing.) I know that there was a *very* long list of things that I wouldn't do...it's gotten shorter over the years. But it takes time to get around them. Some people can do it in a couple of weeks. :) some of us take a little longer.
Charles wrote:
Is that a limit you'd like to push?
