That Humiliation Thing Again I   (11/07/98)
   
 
    moonlight wrote:
    Having had to recover from a *very* low sense of who and what I am and deserve, I don't *DO* humiliation. At least, not like this. Nor do I let any but a *very* select few play on my insecurities. It is not healthy for me, and in the long run, I don't believe that it's healthy for *most* people.

    Argentium wrote:
    I don't tend to do humiliation play. I value someone I call slave too much for that. Why would I want to lower someone's self esteem, and thus their value? Doing that gets me less of them, not more.

    Judy wrote:
    Arrrgh. It still bothers me that so many do not *get* humiliation.
Judy, both Argentium and myself understand humiliation. We don't do it for different reasons. Yes, done correctly, it doesn't have to damage a person.

HOWEVER.....I recognize, WITHIN MYSELF, that there are several large pitfalls that do not make it safe. No matter *HOW* well it is done, WITHIN MYSELF, it will damage me. Clear?

Argentium's reasons for not doing humiliation are his own, and the two sets happen to coincide well for us. There is nothing wrong with humiliation play in and of itself. I disagree that most people know how to do it safely or well, though. I've seen *far* too many people hurt by it.
    Judy wrote:
    When done with someone you trust, it decidedly does *not* lower anyone's self-esteem, in fact it makes it higher. It allows you to conquer that fear of real humiliation.


Seeing as the only people that *can* humiliate me are those that are close to me, this isn't part of the equation. Strangers can't humiliate me. Not unless I *LET* them. They don't have enough understanding of me to know how to do it.

I disagree that it allows most people to conquer anything or builds a person higher. It may for you, I don't know your mindset. It certainly hasn't with the people that I know, though. I don't fear humiliation. I just don't like it. To each their own, eh? There's nothing that says it has to be a part of anyone's play. It's not a part of Argentium's or mine.
    Judy wrote:
    i used to think this way, too, that i could never handle humiliation, that it would be bad for me, but no, it has been nothing but good.


I'm glad it's good for you. It's not for me. Grant me the same respect in my style of play that I grant you, ok?
    Judy wrote:
    i too suffered greatly from *real* humiliation as a child and later.
I didn't suffer humiliation as a child. I suffered extreme shyness and a lack of self-esteem strong enough to believe that I could do anything on my own or do it right. There's a difference.
    Judy wrote:
    i was so afraid of it that, as i keep repeating to those who ask, i wouldn't even attend baby showers because of the embarrassment of those party games.
This isn't a factor for me, either. I just don't like it, nor is it healthy for me. If you've gotten over your sense of shyness and humiliation (though where that is coming from I don't know....I don't understand what part of shower party games are humiliating...), then that is good.

I'm not afraid of it.
    Judy wrote:
    thought, i felt, that all humiliation was a deliberate attack on me, a putting-down of me. As most of you know, in that party sense it is not. But for me, it *all* was.
I don't view it as an attack on me. I view it as ripping away the sense of self worth that has taken me decades to build up. Anything that cracks that, even for a short time, is not healthy and will send me spinning back into the depths. I've done it in the past and had to rebuild it.
    Judy wrote:
    Once i started to look at humiliation in a D/s context, however, once i let go of my own preconceived notions, it assumed a very different look.
I don't have any preconceived notions about humiliation play. I have understandings of how my mind works. I have not seen much evidence that my mind works much different from most people. It is not healthy for me to play this way, so I don't do it. Plain and simple. It is not a requirement of d/s to do it, nor am I breaking some rule about how a Master must treat his slave.
    Judy wrote:
    i know that i am not alone with this discovery, but there seem to be very few of us who do understand this. Please know that if you have not tried it with love and care, you haven't tried it at all.
I understand it. I've tried it with love and care. Your assumption that because I don't do it or like it I haven't *REALLY* tried it right is rather condescending and stupid. You've taken a leap that isn't there. And as for my not understanding it, I do. Been there, done that, not healthy for me.

No matter how many times you say that I didn't do it right, it won't change the fact that I know my brain better than you, and it's just not wired for it. To do it with someone that is not wired for it is damaging. Get it?
    Judy wrote:
    But i would never suggest that any Dom try this who does not feel right about it because that feeling will surely come across to the sub. For me, a sub, it was like a light going on before i ever tried it for real, so there was no issue when i was with a Dom who enjoyed it.
How about never suggesting that any sub try it who doesn't feel right about it? I mean, it *IS* our brains they are playing with. We *DO* have the right to say what we can and cannot take. Just because we're slaves does not mean we're not human, eh?

Then again, I've been told I'm not a true slave because Argentium doesn't take me and break me into a docile little thing that doesn't say boo to anyone.

Boo.